Beating the Loneliness Epidemic, One Step at a Time
Adult friendships are difficult. A big part of that is our built environment, which is often designed in a way that stifles social connection instead of supporting it. Kat Vellos is an author, facilitator, and connection coach who’s working to change that. She and Tiffany discuss the importance of community building, ways to redesign our built environment, and other steps residents and local leaders can take to help their community thrive.
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Tiffany Owens Reed 0:00
Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Bottom-Up Revolution podcast. I'm your host, Tiffany Owens Reed. I'm writer for Strong Towns, and it's been my honor to host this show, I think now for two years. It's so crazy to think about all the amazing guests I've had on here for conversations. I've learned so much from everybody, and it really feels like an honor to be able to amplify their stories and share their insights with our audience. If you've listened to this show for a while, you probably know that one of my favorite topics to discuss is that of social capital. I am convinced that rebuilding the social fabric of our neighborhoods and cities is essential to building strong towns. I think the question of how exactly to do this is one of the most complicated, yet one of the most worthwhile challenges, and today's guest has done some really impressive work thinking about this challenge and creating resources and cultivating insights that I think could really help us tackle loneliness and begin to mend our social fabric. Kat Vellos is the author of the book, "We Should Get Together: The Secret to Cultivating Better Friendships," which was released in January of 2020. She has a background in user experience design and community building, which she leveraged several years ago when launching her own independent research inquiry into why building adult friendships is so hard in our society. One of the conclusions she found is that the design of our neighborhoods is leaving millions of people disconnected and lonely. Put another way, our buildings, blocks, neighborhoods, and cities weren't designed for connection. Now she's working to help change that through friendship, coaching, speaking, creating resources for people seeking greater connection with their neighbors and looking for ways to redesign the built environment itself to better support the human need for social connection. I'm super excited about this conversation. I feel like we have so much to cover, so I'm glad you're here and Kat, welcome to the Bottom-Up Revolution podcast.
Kat Vellos 1:56
Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of the show, and just so excited to be joining you on it.
Tiffany Owens Reed 2:02
Excellent. Let's kick things off with a little bit of your story. Can you share a bit about where you grew up and maybe how you came into your profession of UX design? For those listening, we will refer to user experience as UX, in case you're not sure what that means. Can you share a little bit about that of your professional journey?
Kat Vellos 2:22
Yeah, yeah. So I moved around quite a bit as a young person, but the part of my youth that most affected my view of cities and community were the years I spent as a teenager in the suburbs of South Florida. If you've been there, you might know what I'm talking about. It's a place with not a lot of public transit, sometimes not even sidewalks.
Tiffany Owens Reed 2:41
Which city were you in?
Kat Vellos 2:42
I was outside the suburb of Fort Lauderdale.
Tiffany Owens Reed 2:45
Okay, I spent a little bit of time in Orlando, but I also spent time in the Everglades, which I secretly think I deserve a badge for, because that's a whole nother ball game.
Kat Vellos 2:53
Oh, you know.
Tiffany Owens Reed 2:54
Oh, I know. Yeah, so yeah, but yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Kat Vellos 2:57
So yeah, that living there. I was like, wow. Even as a teenager with no knowledge of urban design, I was like, This is not good. There was not a lot of places for us as teens to hang out, aside from the mall and like the Taco Bell parking lot and like Borders Bookstore. So yeah, it was a tough place to be a teenager. And my professional background over the last 20 years has really been a mix of design and community building. So my degree was in graphic design, that was followed a short time later getting certified as a facilitator, because I was doing a lot of community engagement, community activism stuff, and my entire career since then has been a blend of those two skill sets. And they really, really came together over a decade ago when I was certified as a professional user experience designer. And for those who aren't familiar with that term, it is what it sounds like. It's experience design or a type of service design. And it's a process that is based in qualitative research, it keeps human needs at the center, and it also includes rapid experimentation and iteration and prototyping to test our ideas and see what we learn from them, and see what we can change and grow. So it's not like picking one design and like chiseling it in stone forever. It's really being open to change, and the goal is always to simplify or improve any experience that a person might need help accomplishing more easily. So when I was doing that, I wrote my book.
Tiffany Owens Reed 4:20
I'm really glad you gave an you gave a quick definition of what user experience is, because that's really helpful. I was actually going to ask that. It's actually a really brilliant field. Honestly, I have a little bit of background in marketing, and so I've overlapped a tiny bit with UX world, and it's just so fascinating, the conversations that come out of that space. Because you really are thinking number one about who is your user, what are their needs, and you're really trying to put yourself in their shoes. Whatever experience you're designing, whether it's ordering a coffee or experiencing this complicated art exhibit or something. You're always thinking, let's put ourselves in the shoe of the user and think about this experience from their perspective. And I just find that to be a very energizing and interesting world, even though I've only barely touched the edge of it.
Kat Vellos 5:14
Yeah. It sounds like you totally get it, very intuitively. Because of that, I would guess, hopefully, that you can also see how that kind of bridged into what I'm doing now. I'm not doing UX design every day anymore, but how it led to writing this book, right? Do you want me to say a little bit about that?
Tiffany Owens Reed 5:35
Actually, I would like for you to tell us the story of this topic of adult friendship. So how did you become interested in this topic? This is something else I also find very interesting. Actually, I grew up moving a lot too. So we have these like overlaps where I'm like, Oh man, I thought about this as well. So the whole experience of moving so often, part of what comes with that is figuring out, how do you build friendships when you're not going to be in the same place for very long, but you want to stay in touch with these people? And people have described me as a social introvert, so then also thinking about, like, what makes conversation meaningful? And why do people keep asking me the same six questions? And I really hate this, and it's so miserable. Why am I miserable? But yeah, and then building meaningful adult friendships through the various stages of life, because you're in college, and then you're out of college, and then, let's say you become a parent. And so as life changes, you start to realize that the rhythms of friendship also start to change. But I don't feel like we have any rituals or real shared cultural practices or narratives or stories or traditions around acknowledging that and kind of helping guide what that looks like. So I would just love to know your thoughts, like, what were you noticing and how did this become something that really just like, grabbed your attention and was something you wanted to really dive into and think about?
Kat Vellos 6:48
Yeah, I stumbled into the same struggle that a lot of people stumble into, which is they hit middle adulthood, right? So you're not like, fresh out of college anymore. You're an adult. You're living, you're working your life, and discovering a little bit by surprise that making and keeping friends will get mysteriously more difficult as you get into middle adulthood. And I was observing this, and I started hearing this refrain as well from people around me. And so I got really curious. I'm a very curious person, so I started writing about it, and kind of capturing observations I was noticing about that like mid 30s friendship desert. Then being a designer and a community builder, I started prototyping a gathering called Better Than Small Talk. Similar to you, I was extremely frustrated at answering the same six questions over and over again, like it's Groundhog Day. And I don't love small talk as an introvert as well, because it's like, I'm going to expend this social energy. I want it to be fulfilling, and I'd rather talk about something more deep or more meaningful. And so I started hosting these gatherings called Better Than Small Talk. I met hundreds of people doing that, who were all saying that they similarly wanted better conversations, but they also felt unfulfilled in some way around their experience of friendship. And so I took the same skills I was using every day in my work to see how I could answer a different design question, which is, how can we make friendship more user friendly? And so I spent, you know, five years researching and writing that book, and now the way it looks is like teaching, coaching, advising, writing, speaking, really helping individuals dealing with this challenge, and, more recently, trying to convince city builders to make this easier for their residents as well.
Tiffany Owens Reed 8:19
So let's back up a little bit. As you just mentioned, you spent five years applying your training as a designer and qualitative researcher to find a solution to this -- I like the way you put it -- the desert of adult friendship. As you said that I was like, there's so many layers to this problem, because it's like college, I feel like you're sustained through shared experience in context, right? And even the design of college campuses kind of gives this sort of magical feeling to friendships, because it's walkable, and you can go do random, spontaneous stuff all the time, right? And then people use the word community, which gets really confusing, and it's like, what does that even mean? So I just, yeah, I feel like we could have a whole nother conversation around even the language of friendship and community. And what do people mean by that? What are we really looking for? Do we have words to capture the diversity of what we're actually longing for? So we'll have to save some of that for another day. Tell us about your research. I'd love if you could just kind of dive into that a little bit. Tell us what your research looked like. You said you spent five years on that, and then if you'd like to go ahead and share about the book, and what are some insights that you learned from those five years and from that research?
Kat Vellos 9:27
Totally. You know, sometimes people think that research only happens in like, university setting, which is really funny to me because one of our most revered voices in the urbanism movement, Jane Jacobs, didn't conduct her research in a university, right? She didn't even graduate.
Tiffany Owens Reed 9:40
Oh no, she's like, watching people on her street.
Kat Vellos 9:43
Exactly. She was observing, watching people on the street, paying very close attention to the interactions between people in the context of their lives. And so, similar to Jacobs, I was doing a lot of that as well around this question of adult friendship. And then from there I came up with a research plan to really better understand what were the pain points, what were the causes of friction, what were the workarounds, what were successful strategies when it came to adults being able to form and deepen their platonic connections in adulthood? So one of the things I did was I ran a nationwide survey about friendship and community to better understand what was working and not working for people. And with that, I could uncover trends and patterns and the kinds of answers. And then after that, I spent years doing qualitative interviews where you can really, really dive in deep with somebody to really fully understand their situation. Some of the people I spoke to were struggling. It was very hard to make friends, even though they thought they were doing everything right. And some people were succeeding. They were like, wow, I'm having an amazing time. And I was like, wow, what could we learn from this person about what they're doing that's contributing to them having these really strong in person networks? From there, I could synthesize all of that into a set of recommendations. It's basically a design set of recommendations. And some of these ideas I prototyped myself, some of them were ideas that my research subjects were prototyping in their own lives, even if they didn't call it that, like most people don't use that language to describe what they're doing. They don't ususally say, yeah, I tried an experiment. I tried this thing.
Tiffany Owens Reed 11:11
I created a minimum viable product. You're like, Oh my goodness. Who is this person?
Kat Vellos 11:13
Exactly. Who is this? Yeah, so for example, one of the chapters in my book is about overcoming awkwardness. And I interviewed someone in Australia who had come up with this way that she was getting over awkwardness by continually pushing herself to level up her social risk, particularly from first doing a theater improv class and then going to a games Cafe, and then getting into tabletop role playing games. She just took it up and up and up, doing things that she was like, Yeah, this might seem really geeky or really awkward, but I need to make friends, and I want to get over my fear of feeling awkward and my fear of meeting people, and so I'm just going to keep doing things that gives me more challenge. It's a beautiful example. One reason a lot of people say they don't have time for friends is because they're like, I'm busy all the time, or I'm on social media, and that's the only place I see my friends. So an example of a way that I've prototyped this in my own life and done this with some of my small group participants is I did a busyness detox, like a 30 day busyness and social media detox, so that we could have more time for quality friend connections, right? And so there's ways to make small modifications in our life, to test them, to see what we learn from them, to see how we grow. And then, you know, take it from there.
Tiffany Owens Reed 12:35
Did you notice any patterns with how people define friendship? Like, were there any standard characteristics that kept coming up that people were saying they were looking for?
Kat Vellos 12:44
Yeah. Actually, one of the questions I asked people was, how do you define acquaintance, how do you define friend, and how do you define close friend? And the answers you get will really surprise you. In fact, I'm going to pull it up right now because I want to read you some of their exact words. So a friend is, you know, dot, dot, dot, someone I feel safe and happy with and that I want to hang out with more. And these are quotes from research subjects. Someone that I know well. We know each other's life circumstances and how we got to be who we are and where we are. Someone I don't have to try hard to have a conversation with. Someone I formed a connection with, and I'd be glad if they reached out to me. And then I'm going to add another example here, a close friend, because that there's a distinction there. So the way folks were defining close friend were someone who accepts me completely for who I am. Someone I can confide in and that I'm comfortable being vulnerable with, and whose advice I seek. If I'm in trouble or I'm going through a rough patch, I know that they'll be there with me until the end. And someone who's integrated into my life. And these are the kinds of wishes -- I call it platonic longing, which is the phrase I had to come up with to coin it, because we don't have words for this in our day to day vocabulary. But there's a platonic longing for these kinds of friendships. Most people have a ton of acquaintances, and then there's a little mysterious of like, how do you convert them into a best friend or a close friend? And so that's a lot of what the book is about.
Tiffany Owens Reed 14:17
That's so interesting. I'm really glad you were able to pull that up and share those quotes with us. Can you tell us the story of how, as you're doing this research and you're doing these surveys and having these conversations with people, how you started to make the connection between what people were telling you what they were experiencing, what they're looking for, and the design of the built environment? Like, when do you feel like you really made that connection in the context of your of this research and this work?
Kat Vellos 14:51
Yeah, yeah. And I'll start by saying, like, I know that I'm not the first person to notice this relationship. You know, anybody working in environmental psychology, even interior design, you already know this, right? But for me, personally, my awareness over this was really building over many years, I would say, like the very first time it really hit me, like in my heart, was about 20 years ago at my college coffee house. It was this really lovely place called back streets coffee, since gone out of business. But what was interesting about it was it was in an old house, and so each room of the house was actually set up as a different living room with coffee tables and couches and cozy lamps. And what it created was a setting where you could feel cozy and have these really laid back interactions, even with total strangers. That is just unmatched. You cannot really have that feeling when you walk into a very modernist, modern, minimalist coffee shop today with like, cold steel and like minimalist concrete around.
Tiffany Owens Reed 15:45
Slightly judgmental barista.
Kat Vellos 15:47
Exactly, right?
Tiffany Owens Reed 15:48
And $1.25 upcharge for oat milk. You're like, you just sucked all the vibe out of this place.
Kat Vellos 15:55
Exactly. And so in my young adulthood, that was really formative, and it really showed me how the design of a place can foster or inhibit friendly connection. And then over the years, there were other things that were like bright spots on that journey. So in 2017 when I was doing research for my book, I read another book called Happy City by Charles Montgomery.
Tiffany Owens Reed 16:16
So good. I read that book in Paris. I just have to say. It was great. I bought it at Shakespeare and CO. This tells you that you are an urbanism nerd. When you go to freaking Paris and you walk into Shakespeare and CO and you're like, Excuse me, do you have any books about urbanism? Like, I don't know if I understood the assignment of how to be in Paris, but I was really happy with that book, with that purchase.
Kat Vellos 16:38
Wonderful. Yep, 100% cosign. So yeah, that was really moving. A pattern language by Christopher Alexander and CO. You know, he said, quote, without common land, no social system can survive. And so this has been recognized and acknowledged for a long time. And I really do, unfortunately, believe that one reason that we have a loneliness epidemic is because our places are kind of designed to create one. You put people in houses and apartments separate from each other. You create a social norm of, don't bother anybody. And then you stick them inside with addictive digital devices. What do you think you're gonna get?
Tiffany Owens Reed 17:13
And if they are leaving their house, they're stepping into a machine to go around.
Kat Vellos 17:17
Yeah, exactly, get in your solo machine and drive around.
Tiffany Owens Reed 17:18
Alright, so I'm gonna riff on something. I've been working my way through Jane Jacobs' book again, and I'm going super slowly, like taking notes, doing the whole super slow reading, let's really understand this. Because I've read it before, but it was a really long time ago. She opens the book with this criticism of urban planning at her time, right? And she goes through the three kind of movements were which were like the Garden City. I'm not gonna remember them all, because I'm riffing right now, and I don't have my notes in front of me, but she takes them one by one, and one of the points she makes that's really been on my mind for a while was their attitude about streets and people, and how they saw people as problems and people should be kept off of the streets. And she has a complete opposite perspective. She has this line where it's like, it's the street where you have the tension between barbarianism and civilization. And so the streets really are the stage where we decide if the city is going to be safe and civilized, interesting, beautiful. You know? She was like, No, you want the streets full of people in the right kinds of activities and right kinds of people. And that's what makes your neighborhoods what they are. But one of her criticism is basically like these alternative modes of planning, their mindset was totally different. They saw people as problems and a successful city as empty streets. And so when you look at their designs, it's all about, literally, what you just said, let's figure out how to put the people away from it. And I get it, because a lot of them are doing their work in the context of overcrowding and and I think, you know, at that particular point in time, it was very stressful to be in a city. Like the congestion, even without cars, the sanitation issues, the crime issues, so it makes sense to me how they would think, whoa, y'all need your space, and everyone just needs to chill, and we just need to be make things a little bit more orderly, and everyone doesn't need to be all up in everyone's business. I can see that being a way of thinking about how to solve the problem, right? And I don't know that Jane Jacobs actually provided a good solution to to the overcrowding problem. It's another little rabbit trial I'm working on in my head. But I think what you're getting at is completely 100% right. And those utopias didn't work, is what she points out, but they did really shape modern planning. And so now when I'm walking around a neighborhood or a city, I'm like, Man, you can see this philosophy completely playing out, because now we've just have it in our heads that a successful neighborhood is one where there's not a lot of people on the street and people don't, quote, bother each other. And it's just wild to think how that's just become so baked into how we even understand the definition of a successful public place. That's my rabbit trail. You can just riff on that.
Kat Vellos 20:06
Yeah. I mean, I was having a conversation last night with another community builder, club runner. We were talking exactly about this. I sometimes use visual metaphors in my mind, and one that is always with me that's really kind of sobering and also motivating is the fact that, like, when you take an example of a modern tower apartment building, it's like a bunch of separate rooms, long hallways, closed doors. And then you also look at the design of a prison, it's a bunch of long hallways, locked doors. And the difference is, in prison, you go in your box and someone else locks the door. But in often, the way we live, we go in our own box and we lock the door behind us. And it's just this anonymous hallway where there's no interaction and no communication. And it's like we need to stop imprisoning ourselves, and we need to acknowledge that we can get outside of our front door. We can actually use public space, whatever has been made available to us. And we can use things in a different way, whether it's the sidewalk or the corner or the little parklet or whatever it is. We need to break out of these norms. It's sort of like the nature-nurture question with like, is this actually how people want to behave in cities, or are they actually just behaving this way because that's the way the environment is designed for them to behave, which is to stay alone? And often, when I'm working with people in my coaching, it's often about the mindset shift that has to happen to say, you are allowed to use space in a different way. You are allowed to actually interact with people in a different way, even though you don't see other people doing it. And if you want to change the culture of your street or your block or your building, you might have to go first.
Tiffany Owens Reed 21:43
But also recognizing like it is such an uphill set mental battle, because I think that the design does tell us without words what the norms are. And then you think about how you're pushing against decades of norms and expectations. And you might finally get the courage to cross the street and knock on that door, and the person's probably so happy you did it. Because I would bet that the general reaction to people taking on that kind of courageous action is overwhelmingly positive. People want to be connected with and stuff.
Kat Vellos 23:01
9.9 times out of 10, Tiffany, it is. And people are so validated. They're like, Oh my gosh. Like, people were actually happy that I introduced myself. They were actually happy I invited them to do a neighbor hangout. It's like, yes, everyone's wishing for it, but someone has to go first.
Tiffany Owens Reed 23:38
Someone has to go first. And then you have to ask yourself, in our world where everyone can curate their perfect friendship, and you can constantly be in contact with everyone you want to be in contact with phones and all, I think it's worth thinking about why this still matters. Why do people still feel bothered by the neighbor problem? Which is like, you live in a neighborhood and are surrounded by people who are in proximity to you but you don't know them. And I think it's something that still gets to us, even though we've been given the means and the option to curate our perfect friend group. My theory is that there's something extremely valuable about a stranger taking time to notice you, precisely because they don't have to. Because in friendships there's a sense of duty and reciprocity. Strnagers and neighbors actually -- maybe someone will pick a fight with me on this. But they didn't have to notice you or say anything, or do anything for you. But when htey choose to. Man, the impact of that. I think there's something that's just part of being human that comes alive when those interactions happen. And that's why I think people will move to a new city and they'll be like, I'm never leaving here. And it's not because of their perectly curated friend group. It's because of all the strangers who took the time to know them by name. There's just a weird relationship between the number of strangers who become neighbors without necessarily the pressure of becoming close friends and our sense of like belonging and being seen and feeling safe. That's my second rabbit trail.
Kat Vellos 24:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love all of this, and we can jam on on all these other ideas another time, if you want to keep talking, because it's true. It's like the middle ring of connection, particularly with neighbors, where it's a lower expectation relationship that has all the positivity of the pro social behaviors that you trade with each other, right? Like, seeing each other, looking out for each other, checking in on each other, you know, knowing that you can ask for help if you get locked out of your house and it started to rain. You know, you could knock on your neighbor's door and be like, it's raining, and I actually forgot my key, right? Not feeling alone. It really does. And one of the examples I write about in my book is how, when I lived in this one neighborhood where I knew a lot of the people on that block and the next block over, when I would take a walk in the neighborhood, it didn't just feel like an anonymous, generic space. It felt like my extended home, because I could envision what the inside of all of these places looked like because I had spent time there, you know.
Tiffany Owens Reed 25:16
You have memories and names and that totally humanized the environment.
Kat Vellos 25:21
It does.
Tiffany Owens Reed 25:22
So talk to us about the proximity part. So as you're doing these surveys and you're doing the research and you're talking to people, were you noticing that people were struggling, particularly with the hyper local friendships? Like, how did that emphasis come about? Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Kat Vellos 25:38
Sure. So in my book, I describe a framework that really came out of the research around the four aspects that are most likely to help a friendship thrive and succeed. I call them the seeds of connection, and they are compatibility, proximity, frequency and commitment, and the one that is like, the most fruitful say to start from, if you want to add some friends to your life, is proximity. Because research and common sense shows that you're just going to be more likely to maintain a friendship if someone lives nearby than if they live 90 minutes away. For example, this is just common sense, and in social psychology, the proximity principle shows that the we have a tendency to form a more interpersonal relationship with someone who's close by. This ties in with research from MIT, showing that if you encounter somebody more frequently, you're more likely to like them and to develop a strong relationship. So that's why proximity and frequency are two of the seeds of connection. And with that, once I started working with folks, again, coaching small group programs around developing friendship, I was like, let's specifically focus on hyper local, just because it's going to be the most fruitful place to maintain a friendship that you can easily access, right? And once I started digging in hyper locally with people, that's when there was a new -- not new, it was present in the overall realm of friendship, but it gets much bigger and more in focus when you look hyper locally -- which is, where are you going to do this? Who's around you, and where can you actually get together with them? And that's when the emphasis on like, Okay, well, what is this built environment, and how does this support or hinder connection for people? And that's really when I started getting really clear on that in my program called Platonic Action Lab, which is about developing hyper local and hyper specific friendships. So with that, you really have to open your eyes and look more closely at your neighborhood. And that's often the first step that I'm walking through with people where they're like, Wow, I've never actually noticed my neighborhood. I've never actually, like, counted how many third places there are. I've never actually taken a walk to see, like, who else is outside that I could connect with. And so again, it starts with observing, being aware, noticing your setting, noticing opportunities, and you take it from there.
Tiffany Owens Reed 27:50
Okay, so building friendships of proximity is very different from building other types of adult friendships, because I feel like those tend to start with shared interests, shared values, shared hobbies. You know, we like this type of music. We both like this band. We both go to this church or whatever, right? Or this yoga class, whatever it is. When you're building friendships of proximity, hyper local friendships, your starting point is we all inhabit like a similar built environment, space like this neighborhood, this street, this block. I'm just curious, how have you navigated the conversations and anxieties around like, what if we don't have anything in common, or, like, what if we can't sustain this just based on proximity? Or what if there's big cultural gaps between me and my neighbors, or social economic gaps? I feel like that's a very real block for some people, because it's hard to know, and I don't think it's their fault. I think it's because we don't have shared civic activities that bring us together. And a lot of neighborhoods don't have shared like, third spaces, like small markets or coffee shops or bistros, or you can just kind of interact with these people organically, without the pressure of like, I need to build social fabric, right? How do you navigate that challenge, or that tension around recognizing that there is going to be a different starting point for building these friendships, and maybe there's even a different end goal, where it's not like you're necessarily going to become best friends, but maybe you'll just become really good neighbors, and that's okay. You don't have to everything. Doesn't have to be deep, right? I would just love to hear your thoughts on on any of that.
Kat Vellos 29:23
Yeah, everybody doesn't have to be your best friend. And, like, it's actually illogical for to think that everybody can be your best friend, right? And there is such value in deepening our access to people at differing levels of intimacy, and particularly when you think about the community setting and your neighborhood setting. And one of the early things that we talk about when we say, like, Okay, you want to make friends hyper locally, one of the lovely things that you get to practice is radical acceptance of who is around you, right? They might be really different from you. They might be different ages, demographic, lifestyle, background, whatever. Sure, but the really cool thing about that is that you get to create a really diverse friend community, neighbor community, by being like, wow, we're so different. And like, the only reason why we are talking to each other in this moment is because you live next door, or you live across the street, or you live up the block. I had a woman who did this, she took the challenge on of having a neighbor gathering. She lived in her neighborhood for like a year or two. Didn't really know anybody, and was quite nervous to introduce herself to neighbors and ask them to get together, but her and her husband went ahead and did it. They held like a barbecue kebab party. She loves cooking. Her love language is food. And so she extended invitations to her immediate neighbors. I think she invited like, 10 houses, knowing that, like, not 100% of people are gonna say yes, but a small group of, like, six to eight people came over, and they had a beautiful afternoon with, like, sangria and kebabs, and it was like a super diverse group, like, ethnically, socioeconomically, nationality, just walks of life, ages.And she's like, afterwards, when it was done, she's like, Kat, I kind of liked this neighbor party more than my birthday party, because it was just so full of life and curiosity and interest and surprise. And that's what happens when you don't have a totally curated set of people that you hang out with. You can curate the list to be only the people that are just like you, but you're less likely to be surprised in an experience like that.
Tiffany Owens Reed 31:19
Yeah, I think what you're explaining and through telling that story just reminds me that I think part of the challenge is helping people remember that neighbors are great. Like, it's a great category. It's great to have neighbors. You don't have to be your best friends, you don't have to share everything, right? I think sometimes there's this feeling of pressure of like, I have to turn all my neighbors into my friends. It's like, you don't have to, they can just stay your neighbor, you know? And there might be a limit to the topics you talk about, but having that access to this type of social capital has just such huge exponential rewards to like positive impacts on our quality of life. I remember something similar that I did, I think, three years ago in my neighborhood in Waco, and we threw a big grill out. A neighbor hosted it at his house, and there was plenty room for kids in the backyard, and there's plenty of food. We had a live band, and it was the same feeling. I was like, oh my goodness, this is magical. And it's just so weird to realize that this feels so magical precisely because it is the gathering of neighbors who might not have anything in common. It's not like all your best friends coming over to hang out. So I think that's just something to think about with why does that feel so fulfilling when it's seems to be functioning outside of the categories that we've been told to emphasize for so long, right?
Kat Vellos 32:50
And it's also building the muscle for trusting yourself that you will know how to respond in an improvised situation, right?
Tiffany Owens Reed 32:59
Yeah, and you'll know how to move. You know, maybe someone you meet has the potential to become a best friend. That's great, but I think we just need to restore this category of totally positive loose ties. It's a great thing we need more of. All right, so you write your book, and I would love to hear more about the other opportunities that came out of this or the other ways that you found to apply these insights. You've mentioned the coaching and the workshops, you also created a wide variety of other tools. Can you just share more about kind of what came out of the book, in terms of how you're coming alongside people and helping them, helping them tackle this friendship challenge in their lives?
Kat Vellos 33:42
Yeah, I'd love to. I'm an artist, I'm an illustrator, I'm a writer. I like to create things and to create useful things that people can use in their life. And most of my motivation to do this often comes from trying to solve a problem or frustration that either I or other people say that they're dealing with. And we can provide links in the show notes to all the stuff for people who are interested. But the thing that I guess you and me and a lot of other people out there have is frustration around small talk, right? So I mentioned earlier I was doing Better Than Small Talk, and I actually have the downloadable cards on my shop, on my website, for anybody who wants to use them. All 300 plus conversation starters are also in the back of the book, I created something else called the Better Conversations Kit, which is basically like a calendar where every month of the year, you can get a different conversational prompt. To help you break out of like the typical small talk questions, so that you can have richer, more interesting interactions, whether it's with your kids or your classroom or your colleagues or your friends, whoever it is. And so I like creating tools like that that people can just use and turn to. You don't have to come up with every idea on your own. If you're drawing a blank, use a tool. Like, here's a bunch. I have articles and stuff on my blog about like, what to do if a friend doesn't text you back, or what to do if you want to travel with friends and you don't know how to start that conversation. So things like that, offering guidance to folks. And as I mentioned, for people who want to work directly with me, I do workshops and classes and events and coaching and things like that. And Platonic Action Lab is like the deep, deep dive for people who want to truly transform what their community experience is like.
Tiffany Owens Reed 35:24
You've told us some stories so far, but are there any other stories you'd like to share? I'm specifically interested in any other stories around the hyper local side. Do you have some like, fun success stories you like to talk about?
Kat Vellos 35:37
I do, especially thinking of the people who have gone through Platonic Action Lab, which is like where you're driving in really deep and taking some big chances here. Again, it's customized to you. You could adapt it to small chances if you want, but the people who make big swings tend to get bigger results. And so one example of this is one of my Platonic Action Lab members wanted to have coffee with her neighbors, but she was also very clear that she's didn't want a bunch of people in her house. You know, I don't want a bunch of strangers to come over. And that's like, a natural thing, right? You want to know people better before you invite a bunch of strangers inside. And so we kind of strategized, like, how can we get the word out living in this completely like single family, zoned residential neighborhood with no gathering places? And she didn't want to drive, and she want to have to ask people to drive. And so what we came up with was she would sidewalk chalk the neighborhood, so that anybody walking by or walking their dog that week would see like, coffee club this Saturday in my driveway with like arrows and everything pointing to it. So over the course of the week or two, the word was getting out kind of ambiently via the sidewalk. And what was so fun was that on the day that it happened, her and some neighbors gathered in the driveway. And there was somebody driving by who worked for the city, like they were going around and doing city work. And part of their job was to use that industrial chalk, like the spray paint kind that stays on for a really long time. And they hopped out of the truck. They're like, what's happening here? And she's like, a coffee club! And this person came running over like, I want to have coffee with you. And then they saw her chalk on the sidewalk, and they're like, do you want even better, brighter, like, neon orange chalk about this? And she was like, yeah. And so they like, grabs their kit out of the truck and like, spray painted coffee club here on Saturday on the sidewalk. And it was just this really sweet way where someone very spontaneously from the city decided to encourage and participate in this neighborhood connection activity that was happening.
Tiffany Owens Reed 37:37
That is such a fun story. I want to talk about the city side a little bit more. So part of what you're interested in and what you're trying to do is to kind of, you know, you're working with people, one on one, helping them cultivate courage and take action and reach out and start building these connections and building social ties in their communities. But I know that one thing you're also interested in is figuring out, how do we actually start redesigning places for social connection? Can you share a bit about your thoughts on that? I would love to know, first off, are there specific things that you would like to see happen? Because you mentioned the pattern language, and one thing I love about that book is how specific they are. They're like, the street shouldn't be wider than this many feet. You shouldn't have this much traffic volume going through a neighborhood if you want neighbors to meet. So I feel like there can be like really specific things. I'm just curious if you have like specific ideas of things that you think could really help from the design side, like make these types of encounters easier to facilitate.
Kat Vellos 38:36
Yeah, so I'll talk about the city piece first. I had this conversation a lot at CNU this year as well, where I was speaking to a guy who's more recently elected to a city council committee. And he said, you know, our city is thinking too much like engineers. He's like, they're focused on liability instead of livability. You know, it's a city of no instead of a city of yes, and those kinds of things directly affect whether or not people can connect in their neighborhood. You know, this is kind of a sad story, but I had someone in my program who wanted to get her neighbors together to have coffee in the park. Like, pop out a folding table and just say, like, hey, here's a box of coffee. Pull up a chair, sit down. And her city told her she wasn't allowed to do this unless she had a license and a permit to, like, serve beverages.
Tiffany Owens Reed 39:22
Classic.
Kat Vellos 39:23
Right? Like, how anti community can you possibly get? Like she was so discouraged. And so thinking about the ways that municipalities actively shut down community by making the bar to cross so high. Most people aren't going to do that. They're just going to stay home. They're going to be alone. So thinking about the ways that maybe, like radical idea, but maybe just consider saying yes, right? Consider saying, like, if it's under 30 people, you don't need a permit to have coffee and snacks with your neighbors in the park, right?
Tiffany Owens Reed 40:00
Breaking news, everybody.
Kat Vellos 40:02
Breaking news, world changing! That would actually make it a lot easier for people to feel like they're encouraged to do this behavior, instead of like they're breaking some kind of rule just to be friendly with your neighbors. Imagine. And then there's other things to think about. You know, one phrase I've been toying with is interaction infrastructure, which is realizing that if we don't build places for people to interact, they probably won't. We need to think about, what does the design of a building look like? What does the design of a street look like? And if it's only like place to sleep and place to spend money, that's not enough, right?
Tiffany Owens Reed 40:37
Yeah, that's not enough.
Kat Vellos 40:39
It's really not. It's not enough. Another thing that comes up a lot in my work, has to do with communication methods, right? So we don't make it easy for people to talk to each other in. Well, if you want to use a digital tool, sure you can try Facebook or Nextdoor. Good luck to that. But we also don't make it easy for people to talk to each other in analog ways, like a bulletin board or a telephone pole where you can hang a flyer. There really isn't easy ways for a lot of people to do this, and so we end up going one by one, like dropping invitations at people's doors. It's the slow way. We can do.
Tiffany Owens Reed 41:13
Like, we don't have the town square anymore.
Kat Vellos 41:15
There's no town square. You don't have a place to like, Post No Bills, right? It's like, yes, make it easy to post and say, like, Hey, neighbor, get together on Saturday, right? But if there isn't an easy way to communicate that, man, it's an uphill climb. And then all of that really wraps into how we affect social norms and change those social norms. One example of this that I love has to do with our local library, which is really doing a lot more events and workshops, and they're trying to change people's behavior by understanding that you can use the library in a different way. They even have concerts at night where they like, move the tables and chairs into like a circle and invite a musician to play. And you normally think of a library as a place you go to be quiet, don't make any noise, don't bug anybody. But they're turning it into a third place by saying, like, let's use this space in a different way. And we want it to be a connection. So we're going to make noise, we're going to play music and we're going to laugh, we're going to watch movies, and we're going to talk to each other and, like, repair our clothes together, and doing things like that. And so in another way, I think that we all have to reprogram ourselves out of this idea of, like, just be private, be an individual, don't bug anybody, to actually say, like, have the community that you want to live in by behaving as if you already have it. Be friendly, even if nobody else has been friendly to you first, right? Communicate, even if nobody has communicated to you first.
Tiffany Owens Reed 42:32
Have you seen on Instagram the people doing the our pretend European picnic and our driveway or stuff like this, where it's like, we can't afford a European vacation, so we're creating a European like, aperitif hour or something.
Kat Vellos 42:45
Yes. I haven't seen it on Instagram because I quit in January, but I love this kind of thing.
Tiffany Owens Reed 42:53
I want to ask you about the norm side. Have you given any thought to the problem of phones? Because I feel like, even in places where there's really great social infrastructure -- like, just hop on a flight to any major city these days -- I mean, without fail, literally everyone is glued to their screen. I'm just curious what thoughts you have on this, and what do you think it's going to take to help people look up again and actually reclaim human modes of behavior and interaction. Because it's like, man, what if we do all this work and the next generation or so, the only norms that they've been handed down areto sit there and scroll on their phone, even though they're in a place that's designed for human connection?
Kat Vellos 43:33
Yes, I have many photos. So like a lot of urbanists, I keep a lot of albums on my phone of like pictures of different things in cities, and one of them is people in cities where a space has been created to spend time, like there's chairs out and like a park or whatever, but everybody sitting there is on their phone. So one of the goals of design is to reduce ambiguity, and one of the problems that people face when they go into a space, say that is created for hanging out, is that it's ambiguous about who else wants connection in that space. And so a lot of folks, default to like, well, if I feel awkward and I don't know if anybody else wants to talk to me, I'm just going to scroll my phone. And one of the things that we can do is reduce ambiguity, even in the design of the street furniture. So for example, one initiative that was started in the UK that was really beautiful was called the Happy To Chat Bench. And it's been replicated all around the world. It's a great idea. Anybody can do it. It's a bench that says, This is the happy to chat bench. If you're open to having a friendly chat with another stranger, sit on this bench. One example of this that I thought could be an intervention was actually on a street in New York where there were all these Adirondack chairs outside of a park. And some of them were like, blue, and some of them were yellow, and some of them were orange, or whatever, pink. And it's like all they needed to do was to put up a sign that said, sit in the blue chairs if you want some alone time, sit in the pink and yellow chairs if you're open to a chat, and then arrange the furniture. They were all movable. Arrange them into small clumps of like two or three, so that it's more visually obvious that when you're sitting in these chairs, you're chatting with somebody else. And when you're sitting in like the row of blue chairs that are all socially separated, these people want some peace and quiet, right? And so there's ways that we can just go 10% more to make it more clear. Like how we can say this space is for connection and this space is for being alone, and that's okay. Sometimes we do want to be alone in a public setting, and that's fine. But if we don't make it less ambiguous about how to connect and make it socially acceptable to connect, people are just going to default to leaving everybody alone and scrolling together.
Tiffany Owens Reed 45:48
I also like to think of the pattern in the book dancing in the street. I feel like one of the simplest solutions to this problem is just to be inserting more meaningful shared activities into our public spaces so that there's a reason to be there and people don't have to wonder or be courageous enough to strike up a conversation. It's like we should just have more dancing everywhere. That would be my theory on how to change the world, which is, like, there's just always dancing. So thinking more from like the built environment side, what are some of your hopes and goals in terms of applying your research and your insights and the work you've done to actually, like you said, working with city planners and designers? What potential do you see there? What would you like to see as it pertains to designing our places, to help people facilitate greater connection?
Kat Vellos 46:15
Yeah, I really hope to reach and convince more of the builders, developers and city officials, to help them understand that when we build better places that really serve people's real needs, it's not a detraction from your goals. It actually helps create healthy communities of the future. I really don't believe that anybody wants to build a place where people feel lonely, right? But you have to build for connection on purpose, with clarity and intention, because it's not just going to happen on its own. And the last 75 years plus of building the way we have has shown us it's not just going to happen on its own and in the absence of the intention and within the absence of the space and the regulations that support it and the norms that support it. What we're left with right now is a lot of individuals taking small actions in their own life. Often it looks like tactical urbanism, right? It's a small, quick, light, cheap thing to do to try to encourage healthy social behaviors in a space that wasn't designed for it. And I just want to make this easier for the millions of Americans out there who are feeling lonelier than they want to and are surrounded by people that they don't feel like they can connect with or that they're not even allowed to talk to.
Tiffany Owens Reed 47:45
Yeah, yeah. I think during covid, one of the best examples we saw of this was closed streets. And sometimes I drive through my neighborhood or my city and I'm like, Why does every single residential street have to be open to cars? Like, some of them are so thin and like, so tucked back there. I'm like, There's no way this is a super extra efficient route to something. Can we just close it or maybe not 100% close it, but just make it residents only, you know, or something, so that the kids can come out and play. Or if it's narrow enough, you can go in and do some design interventions to make it feel a little bit more like a public -- not like a public place, because it's still people's yards and stuff, but to make it easier to contemplate the idea of spending time out there? But I think just reevaluating how many neighborhood streets are actually open to cars and through traffic could be maybe one thing, and alleys too. We have a lot of alleys in Waco. I'm always like, how can we turn those into social spaces somehow? We can't, right now, because they're also social spaces for a lot of loose dogs.
Kat Vellos 48:48
Oh no. Yeah, if there's loose wild dogs running around and cars barreling through, not going to be easy to play in the street. Not going to be easy at all to play in the street. But we need, but we deserve, spaces. And most of the time, as you noted, the spaces that are allotted for cars are sitting empty. And that could be space that's turned into a pop up park, right? Pop up plazas, like maybe three out of four weekends a month, no cars go here. Or during the week, or something like that, other than like the people who live there. So that it is a space that is for play. You know, one of the things that bothers me is that people say, Oh, well, adults have places to go. They can like, go to a coffee shop or cafe. And I love third spaces, and I actively promote creating more of them. But I want to flip that on its head. Imagine that if you had kids, and every time they wanted to go to a playground, you had to pay money for that. So you had to pay for them to get on a slide and play with other kids in the sandbox. It sounds kind of crazy, but that's really what we ask adults to do. When we say, Oh, if you want to play or hang out with other adults, you have to spend money for that. And it's just not fair, especially when we have so much space that could just be used differently.
Tiffany Owens Reed 49:55
Okay, so one of the things that I've been thinking about as it pertains to building local friendships and social fabric and loose ties and social capital and all that, is the need for us to have not just like leisurely shared activities, but also like meaningful shared activities, like advocating in our cities or solving shared problems. Because this is one of the biggest historical disruptions is that, you know, our economies are not as locally sustained as they used to be. And that used to be a way that people got to know each other. It wasn't like a project. You didn't have to think about how to meet your neighbor, because you just had these natural events of building your economy, or if it was solving local problems, or if it was being on the town council, you know? I think it was much easier, historically, in some ways, to be part of civic life and build loose ties and build your neighborly connections that way. And I think we've really disrupted that. And so I think that's part of the explanation of why people are subtly fumbling to find ways to plug into their community. I'd just be curious to hear your thoughts on that, and what do you think could help? And how could we restore maybe some sense of we're working together to actually improve our community? Or giving people more meaningful projects or just work to do, or ways to actually shape the community they're living in, rather than always feeling like it's the expert's job to fix all those problems.
Kat Vellos 51:25
Yeah. I mean, the first step is to get curious, and the second step is to get involved. I think everybody has something to offer, even if it's just a listening ear, right? So as you mentioned, talking to neighbors about what matters to them, finding out, like, what are things that you maybe wish were different in this area? Or that you that you need help with or that you wish could be improved? It might be something that you do need to bubble up to your district or their commissioner or something to ask for their help, to say, hey, this crosswalk is really unsafe. Can we get some help with that? But it might be something else. I did an interview project one time around loneliness as it pertains to designers and design community. And one of the fellows I had an interview with was pretty high level, like senior executive designer, 20 year career. One of the design projects that was the most meaningful to him, and that helped him feel so meaningfully connected to his community, was getting involved and learning more about the local sports team. It was like a youth sports team. I think it was basketball, and they didn't have t shirts. They wanted t shirts with, like, their own logo. He's like, I know how to do that, I'd be happy to design a logo with you. And they co-designed it, it was definitely participatory design process. He didn't just make it for them, but they made it together. He drew it up. They loved it. He donated the shirts. And he started crying, telling me this story. He's like, this is probably the most meaningful design project I've ever worked on. And he had done, like, huge business professional jobs, but it was getting involved and contributing to his community and offering the skill he had, and being like, How can I offer this and to the people around me? And so whether your skill is cooking or design or mending or just being a good listener, sometimes the most meaningful connections come from being in a place of service like that, and being in a place of humility, willing to hear what people need and if there anything that you can do that can support them, not waiting for someone else to save you.
Tiffany Owens Reed 53:26
Yeah. And I think the way you articulate that is a really good summary of kind of the Strong Towns approach to, you know, building a strong town, right? It's like, first you notice. We're practicing curiosity, practicing humility. And I think this could be a really helpful, like, entry point for some people who are like, I don't know, the whole being friends thing kind of makes me anxious. But I'm like, great, then find one small area where your community is struggling, andlet's start there. And so I think that really taking ownership for place and realizing, like, we don't have to wait for the experts to come fix this, and we can start talking to our neighbors about the fact that we keep noticing cars racing through here at 80 miles an hour. Like, Okay, let's do something about that. So seeing stewardship of our neighborhoods, of our streets, as a wonderful and super meaningful entry point to tackling the loneliness and the sense of disconnection, I think there's definitely something worth considering there.
Kat Vellos 54:22
Absolutely.
Tiffany Owens Reed 54:23
As we wrap up here, you've mentioned a couple of design principles. I'm just curious. I really like thinking about frameworks, because I feel like so much of the conversation in the urbanism world has to do- Yes, it's about specific policies and specific reforms and specific this and specific that. But I also think sometimes we need to take like, three big steps back and realize this is like a framework problem. This is a paradigm problem. And I think I had a conversation a few weeks ago with a woman who does community gardening in Denver, and she was talking about permaculture, and so I kind of went on a deep dive into the whole permaculture world. I was like, oh my goodness, this is such a brilliant paradigm, paradogmatic way of thinking, and it could totally be applied to how we're thinking about our cities. I feel like something similar could be said for user experience design, or just the design world in general. Maybe you could share like, two design principles that you think could help us shift in how we're talking about some of our biggest city, urbanist challenges? Or, when you think about cities as a designer, what are some of the principles or practices that you feel like could help us kind of break out of these outdated and limiting paradigms and really start to move forward with solutions that could actually improve people's lives?
Kat Vellos 55:39
Yes, love this question. So the first thing I would say is open ended curiosity. So being a designer, being an imaginative person, being a creator, an artist, that is the first step for me, and that I would encourage anybody to develop that skill. Just have open ended curiosity about the things you see around you and notice, like, interesting, what is that? Why is it used that way? What else could we do instead? And that leads into the second thing, which is the imagination, and knowing that there's always another way to solve this. There's always another way to use this space or to solve this challenge or to approach this question. And so the combination of curiosity and imagination, I think are two things that are a part of design thinking, but they're also a part of how we solve the issues that surround us. Particularly with curiosity. You know, anybody can get curious to ask your neighbors, what does community feel like for you around here? Or what was it like for you making friends when you moved here? And that's a pretty open ended question. There's no right or wrong answer. That's the thing, if you're doing research, you really want to ask, unbiased, open ended questions. You will learn a lot from people, and anybody is allowed to do that. You don't have to be a quote, unquote researcher just to get curious and find out. Like, what is it like for your neighbors to connect in this area? But what does it feel like for them? Do they actually want more friendship? Or, like, wow, I have to actually fly out of town every week, and so I don't have time for community. You might learn a lot, but at least you will have more insight into who's around you, and you can practice imagination, so that if you have the same goal of wishing you did have more community around here. Well, what could that look like? What would you love to say yes to? That's a question I love asking people. It's like, what kind of invitation would you love to say yes to? Ask somebody that. Find out what they would like to say yes to. If it's something you like, try it, invite them to it.
Tiffany Owens Reed 57:30
Yeah. I wonder what would happen if we started asking that question to, like, our planners. What would you like to say yes to? Could you give us a list? We're just curious. I bet there's some cognitive dissonance there. Can you talk a little bit about the iterative process that that's so critical to design thinking, because I feel like that's so transferable as well.
Kat Vellos 57:57
It's the understanding that we're probably not going to have a home run on the first try every time we do something. But as long as we're learning, if the goal is learning, then we can iterate and prototype and run as many cycles around that as we want. So for example, I did an experiment once where I invited some neighbors to get together, and I had a really low response rate, and I was, like, interesting. I wonder why. And then the next round, I changed some variables. I changed like, what the invitation looked like. I changed the wording of how I phrased it. I picked some different places. And the next time, I had almost, like, a 99% response rate. And so it's not giving up the first time if you don't get exactly the result you want. If you don't get the result you want, get curious. Use your imagination. Try it a different way. Try it a second or a third time and see what happens.
Tiffany Owens Reed 58:51
Yeah, I remember when I hosted ice cream social in Waco, like, the same year that I did that barbecue thing, and like, one person came, and I was like, You're kidding me. It's like 99 bazillion degrees and one person. And it took me probably another year to realize that the culture in Texas is to hibernate in the summer, like, trying to do social events in the summer, it's just a no go. I was like, oh, maybe that's why people didn't come out. I'm sure there were other factors. But yeah, I think trying lots of different things, and then really learning your context is a big part of that, because there's going to be different cultural norms. Like, there's going to be just quirkiness about your specific place. And, yeah, it's going to take some time to figure out, like, what really clicks.
Kat Vellos 59:35
Yeah, and the seasonality you mentioned, you never know what it is. It could be seasonality. You know, there's sometimes here in the Bay Area, like half the town will empty out, and it's because everyone's gone to Burning Man, and it's like, you need to understand the context of where you are. And what's a good time to make invitations?
Tiffany Owens Reed 59:50
Kat, this has been such a great conversation. I'm sure there's, like, a zillion more things we could talk about easily, but I will definitely be putting some links in our show notes, to your book, to the various resources you mentioned, to the coaching opportunities. So if you're listening to this and want to learn more about what Kat is working on and the resources she's created to help us form better connections, to get to know our neighbors, please check those links out. But in closing, Kat, I would love it if you could share with us a little bit about your neighborhood. What do you love about it, and what are a couple places that you like to recommend people check out when they come, if they were to come through, you know, a couple hours or a day trip? This is, this is a question I ask all my guests, because I want to get to know the places that people call home.
Kat Vellos 1:00:32
Yeah. So I live in the East Bay. So when people think of San Francisco, they usually think of the city. Then there's like the Bay Bridge, and on the East Bay is Oakland and Berkeley, which sort of blends together. Oakland's much bigger than Berkeley, so there's a lot more going on. So that's where I'm going to put my recommendations, because two of my favorite places to get a slice of community life are actually in the Oakland. And one is Jacqueline and square, which is a waterfront with a huge walking area, open area parks, tons of great benches for bench nerds like me. And then, of course, they have a historic bar that's been there for over 150 years. And there's like, outdoor ping pong tables that you can play on, and there's a dog run, and there's boats going by, and it's just full of life, both with people who are visiting and people who are local. It's just a lovable area. So that's open all the time, and I highly recommend going there if you want to get a slice of the East Bay, which, by the way, is about 10 degrees warmer than San Francisco, so it's usually nicer. And then the other one that I think is really great. On a Saturday morning, you can check out the Oakland farmers market. There's over 100 booths of not only produce and vendors, but also really good, hot, prepared food. You can get dim sum, sit on the hill, watch everybody going by. It's it's a nice time.
Tiffany Owens Reed 1:01:50
Okay, Kat, this was amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show with me. Thank you for taking the time to share insights with us. If you're in our audience, thank you for joining me for another conversation. Again, we'll put links to everything in our show notes. Be sure to check out more of Kat's work online. And if there's someone in your community who you think would make a great fit for this show, please let us know using the suggested guest form. We find out about lots of wonderful people that way, and we're always looking for more stories that we can tell. I hope this has been an inspiring episode for you, and I'll be back soon with another conversation. In the meantime, keep doing what you can to build a strong town.
ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES
Local Recommendations:
See more from Kat:
We Should Get Together (site)
“We Should Get Together: The Secret to Cultivating Better Friendships” (book)
Platonic Action Lab (course)
Downloadable tools: Better than Small Talk and the Better Conversations Kit
Tiffany Owens Reed (Instagram)
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Tiffany Owens Reed is the host of The Bottom-Up Revolution podcast. A graduate of The King's College and former journalist, she is a New Yorker at heart, currently living in Texas. In addition to writing for Strong Towns and freelancing as a project manager, she reads, writes, and curates content for Cities Decoded, an educational platform designed to help ordinary people understand cities. Explore free resources here and follow her on Instagram @citiesdecoded.