Chuck Marohn 00:16

Hey everybody, this is Chuck Marohn, and you are listening to the Upzoned podcast, the relaunch of the Upzoned podcast.

I want to talk briefly about where we've been and what we've got going on. There’s a lot happening at Strong Towns. We did a survey of podcast listeners last year and got really good feedback on all of our podcast feeds. Upzoned has always been the feed for current news—what’s happening right now, what’s urgent, and how we can have a healthy conversation with multiple perspectives and even a bit of friendly debate.

The goal is to have a format that includes familiar Strong Towns voices and a mix of outside voices—members, thought leaders, and others—joining us to discuss a topic. Today is our kickoff episode.

I’ll admit, I’m a bit tired. I got in late last night after a huge storm delayed my flight, and instead of getting home at 8 p.m., I got home at almost 4 a.m. But we’ve got a great group today, so I’m going to hand it over to Norm to kick us off.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 02:14

Welcome, everyone. Today we are talking about the city of Los Angeles and its efforts to prepare to host the Olympics and the World Cup.

Billions of people will be watching what’s happening in their city, so they are considering initiatives to improve the look and feel of their streets. We’re discussing an article called “Talking Trash” by Alyssa Walker in Torch Magazine, published February 12, 2026.

The article describes two competing visions for dealing with trash. On one hand, the city’s Shine LA initiative is taking control and cleaning up specific zones. On the other, there’s Juan Naula, a local organizer who picks up trash every Saturday, films it, posts it online, and even takes it to the dump when the city doesn’t respond.

This raises a question: how can a city capable of hosting global mega-events struggle to pick up trash?

Carlee Alm-LaBar 04:30

The big thing that stood out to me is that the need in Los Angeles is so great that efforts are being fractured across targeted corridors—areas tourists will see.

If you build a community for your own residents—one they can take pride in—you naturally make it appealing to visitors. It felt like Los Angeles is skipping steps. They don’t have the basics in place for residents, yet they’re focusing on tourists.

Chuck Marohn 05:55

There’s so much in Los Angeles. I was just there, and from Griffith Observatory you see this vast expanse. A lot of it isn’t designed for people—it’s designed to drive through.

When places aren’t built for people to care about them, it becomes hard to maintain them. Compare that to Disneyland, where everything is intentional. Trash cans are placed exactly where people need them.

In LA, there isn’t a concentration of people walking, so it’s hard to place infrastructure like trash cans effectively. The result is trash everywhere—not because people are worse, but because of the development pattern.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 10:07

This leads to selective investment. The city focuses on areas that already look better, while neglecting others.

Juan Naula pointed out that he cleans every Saturday, while the city recruits volunteers only occasionally. He’s asking: why can’t the city do this consistently?

We’ve seen local groups use trash pickup as a way to mobilize people. But even when they bag trash, it’s hit or miss whether the city collects it.

Carlee Alm-LaBar 12:25

Trash pickup can be a powerful early win for communities. In my own community, we’ve been picking up trash along a corridor for years, and now the city is investing in improvements there.

It’s not always guaranteed, but it can lead to momentum and broader engagement.

Chuck Marohn 13:53

Let me be the downer. This reminds me of how grocery stores shifted work onto customers—you bag your own groceries, now you even ring them up.

Cities are doing something similar. Residents are doing the hard work, and the city just picks up the bags—if that.

This isn’t about people not caring. It’s about structural inability. LA is deeply in debt and can’t sustain basic services across its development pattern.

Even along highways, trash accumulates in ways that are nearly impossible to maintain. It’s a logistical nightmare.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 20:05

If a city can’t handle basic services, what else is being neglected?

There’s also a deeper question: are we shifting public responsibilities onto individuals? Trash cleanup becomes both civic action and a form of protest.

Chuck Marohn 21:50

Cities will focus on visible areas—like Olympic sites—because that’s where the world is watching.

But the real issue is capacity. Cities can’t maintain everything. So the question becomes: where will they provide high-quality service?

Those decisions often happen implicitly, not strategically.

Carlee Alm-LaBar 26:51

Development patterns matter. Traditional patterns create ownership—people care for the space outside their homes or businesses.

Modern patterns create spaces that belong to no one, so responsibility defaults to the city.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 28:53

We’re seeing more private solutions—private security, water filtration—because public systems are falling short.

That creates a hidden tax on urban living and discourages people from choosing more walkable environments.

Chuck Marohn 33:03

Hosting mega-events can create the illusion that everything is fine. But it masks deeper structural issues.

Becoming a Strong Town means rethinking the development pattern and focusing on building real neighborhoods over time.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 37:00

We need small, practical steps. If residents bag trash, the city should pick it up. That’s a simple, high-impact action.

Chuck Marohn 37:34

Exactly. That’s the next smallest step.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 38:09

Now we’ll transition to the Downzone.

Chuck Marohn 38:09

I’ve been rereading “Finite and Infinite Games” by James Carse. Cities are infinite games—they’re about enduring, not winning.

Carlee Alm-LaBar 41:19

I’ve been following the Strongest Town contest. It’s exciting to see so many strong communities competing.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 42:41

I recommend the show “Jury Duty.” It’s a fascinating social experiment and very entertaining.

Chuck Marohn 45:35

Keep doing what you can to build a strong town. Take care, everybody.

Norm Van Eeden Petersman 45:47

This episode was produced by Strong Towns, a nonprofit movement for building financially resilient communities.