Suburbs Broke the American Sunbelt. Now What?

Sunbelt cities like Phoenix, Dallas, and Atlanta have long prided themselves on having affordable and abundant housing. However, they’re now seeing stagnation in housing construction and rapidly rising costs. Today, Abby is joined by Rachel Leonardo, a trained architect and Strong Towns’ video creator, to discuss how rigid single-use zoning has locked cities into expensive fragility. They explore whether these cities can course correct and how they could become more resilient and prosperous in the long-term.

• Click here for a transcript. (Lightly edited for readability.)

  Abby Newsham 0:18

  Hey, everyone, thanks for listening to another episode of Upzoned, the show where we take a big story from the news each week and we Upzone it. We talk about it in depth. We dig deeper into what it really means for the future of town, cities and people who live in them. Today, I have some very special episode with a brand new guest that I've never had on before, and I'm just meeting today for the first time. So very excited about this. Rachel Leonardo is a video producer at Strong Towns. She's with us from Spain, which I want to hear more about. But yeah, Rachel, very excited to have you on. Maybe you can talk a little bit more about yourself before we get into the article.

  Rachel Leonardo 1:08

  Sure, definitely. Well, thank you. First of all, I'm also very excited to be here and actually sit down and have a conversation with you. I know your name and what you do. You have been in my orbit for so long, but we've never really had a chance to meet. So this is very exciting. Like you said, I make videos for Strong Towns, predominantly, but I do have a background in architecture. I studied that in school. And then following a calling to come out here to Spain, and having friends in Germany, which led me to this area. I always say that German was harder to learn in Spanish, so that's why I ended up in Spain. I wasn't able to practice architecture out here, and so video creation was, at first, a hobby, something that I did on my own. I was able to marry these two topics that I really love as much as I do, and now I make stuff online to visually show people the importance of why it's important to reconsider the development patterns that we have in the United States as well as other areas of the world, to make it more people friendly for everybody to live in.

  Abby Newsham 2:20

  Yeah. And what more wonderful place than Spain to appreciate walkable cities and beautiful architecture? I mean, that sounds really lovely.

  Rachel Leonardo 2:31

  Yeah, it definitely has been a dream, but I'm always cautious to say that it's not about making US or Canadian cities like European cities.

  Abby Newsham 2:43

  Yeah.

  Rachel Leonardo 2:43

  It's rather seeing that they're using certain frameworks that we can take and apply and make our own across North America. So yeah, but it has been a dream. And I'm always open to visitors, so anytime you're out here, let me know, and I'm happy to show you around.

  Abby Newsham 3:03

  Well, I'm always looking for an opportunity to come back to Spain. I've only been to the Catalonia region, so yeah, I'd love to come see other parts.

  Rachel Leonardo 3:13

  Yeah, come on over. I'd love that.

  Abby Newsham 3:17

  Okay, so, well, very nice to meet you. I'm excited to talk to you about this article today as well, because we're going to be talking about American cities, particularly in the Sun Belt. So we are covering a major feature article that was published by Vox entitled "Sprawl Made the American Sunbelt Affordable. Now It's Breaking It" by Marina Bolotnikova, which I apologize if I didn't pronounce it correctly. The piece explores how decades of sprawling suburban growth, which was once touted as the key to Sun Belt affordability, has really hit a wall. So this is describing cities like Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, which have long prided themselves on having abundant housing and very low regulation. They're now seeing stagnation in housing construction, and they're also seeing rapidly rising costs and increasingly rigid zoning. In other words, the same sprawl based model that once helped these places grow, presumably, are now making them very fragile and expensive. So the article pulls in data from a lot of leading economists, and I also want to give a shout out to the many brains of Strong Towns that are featured in this article, including Chuck Marohn, but also Ezra Klein, Alli Quinlan, Nolan Gray. I mean, very cool to see these names in this article. They highlight how kind of a rigid single use zoning mindset has locked entire metro regions into very car dependent, low density patterns that are very resistant to needed change. So today, we are going to be asking, what happens next to these areas? Can they course correct, and how do we make these places potentially more resilient and financially strong and livable in the long term. So for Rachel, I'm curious what some of your initial thoughts on this article were.

  Rachel Leonardo 5:34

  Yeah, no. I mean, I like the way that they positioned the the benefits that sprawl had brought to U.S. development post World War Two. I think it takes a topic that we typically look at as very black and white, which is suburban growth as this experiment that was detrimental to the United States, and it shows the complexities of the situation that we were once faced with and why we chose to make the decision to build in a certain development pattern after that period of time. But also how that rigidity and maintaining that mindset has now not allowed us to evolve and grow in what is the natural cycle for most people, just through life and and the way that our cities once did prior to World War Two. Yeah, those were my initial thoughts, at least, is they did a good job of capturing the complexities of suburban development and how we need to address it. But I'd be curious, if you don't mind me asking you the question, what this what this article means for you as somebody who's an urban planner in the field, and whether you've seen any kind of like sway between the difference of like, maybe five years ago talking about suburban development and now? It just feels much more prevalent, at least from my perspective.

  Abby Newsham 7:11

  Yeah, it certainly is. And, you know, working in places like like Texas, which is in the Sunbelt region, I found that they have a lot of city managers and people in leadership positions that are actually talking very strongly about this issue of financial resilience and speaking to a lot of these Strong Towns issues, despite having this very sprawly suburban growth pattern that is prevalent in many metropolitan areas, if not all metropolitan areas, in Texas. The conversation is there in urban planning circles and people who are dealing with public administration. So I've been encouraged to see that it's on the table. It's important. The development pattern has been recognized as a financial liability and something to be addressed. But I think when it comes to how cities and towns actually go about changing things and making themselves more resilient, it's not a one size fits all solution, and they're often coming up against priorities, with state funding, federal funding, you know, expanding highways, growing out and not up. And so I think for individual municipalities, it can be a real challenge to balance this kind of regional growth mindset, which is now doling out funding for highways and other resources, and advocating for more incremental growth that that is more small scale. And you know, the one criticism I think I have of this article in particular is that they highlight the state level reform. Which I think is very important. I know, you know, Nolan Gray, who I would say is a friend of Strong Towns. I don't know, they like to debate with each other. But he's a friend of mine, and he's done a lot of really good work in terms of state level reform with his organization, alongside many other people. But there is a case to make about incremental change, kind of bottom up things that could happen, and my one hang up with this article is that, despite bringing in people like Chuck Marohn and Alli Quinlan, who's the executive director of the Incremental Development Alliance, I think that we could have pushed further in this article on that discussion and how you actually do that, because it is very challenging. And I think a lot of what cities and towns and people in leadership positions in particular struggle with is you can't necessarily take an incremental development approach and treat it as like a systematic machine that that you can apply, right?

  Rachel Leonardo 10:28

  It's not one size fits all, like you were saying before.

  Abby Newsham 10:33

  Yeah. I mean, it takes a bunch of scrappy, weird people who are willing to take a chance on cool buildings. I mean, last week I interviewed Bernice, and it's like, yeah, the world would be amazing with like a million Bernices, but she's a very unique person. And every person who is an incremental developer, like they're taking a path that is not normal in this society. We just don't have a culture or building that is not about top down approaches.

  Rachel Leonardo 11:05

  Yeah. And I think it's interesting. You talk about the people needing to be kind of weird. It's scrappy. And I there's a level of like, scrappiness that we need to embrace. And I think that, yeah, one thing this article doesn't necessarily feature as much plays to the complexity of how do we approach the suburban development today, and how do we start to find an answer? And there really is no one answer. It's just about understanding certain frameworks of design and having the right people plugged in, in leadership roles in different places, to be able to implement those things in a way and in a language that resonates with the people of that place. And how do you make that accessible when you're trying to send a public message on a national level, right? Like, how do you make that statement adaptable to the granular needs of like, Buffalo, New York, or I was just in Marion, Ohio, like they are, you know, northern U.S. but one is Midwest culture, and one is, you know, upstate New York. Bernice is definitely going to come at me for not knowing exactly where Buffalo is, and maybe I'm showing my terrible geography skills right now, but the point beingthere's just so much nuance and differentiation that each place needs to be able to hear that I do think it's hard when an article like this comes out and it's talking about a problem that does affect us all, and whose systems were put in place to essentially impact California, Dallas Phoenix, all in a very similar way. But there really is no way to say, like, okay, this is a one stop shop system that we can apply to each of these different places to make each of them great and financially resilient again, right? It's like a safety net to feel that there's this broader system or broader form of development at play that we can lean back onto as a nation, versus actually embracing the different cultures and climates and essentially vernaculars that would adapt to or respond well to certain environments That would make that place feel stronger and more resilient, so socially, but also then economically speaking. Like, yes, the framework is compact development does lead to less financial risk, but it does allow for more people to invest in businesses and have like, entrepreneurship opportunities, etc, etc. So, yeah, complicated. It's complex.

  Abby Newsham 14:03

  Nonetheless, it is very complex. I mean, yeah, but development housing, all these issues are very complex. Another thing that I would love to see highlighted more in these discussions is, you know why the home building, subdivision building industry is so focused on greenfield development. Like there are real financial reasons for that, and I would say, when it comes to how businesses formulate and run, it's often a path of least resistance, right? I mean, water runs downhill, and if something is easier to do than one off urban infill projects and more profitable, that's where businesses are going to scale up. And so some cities are getting really smart about that distinction between greenfield and infill development and addressing some of those heightened risks and barriers that infill development just inevitably has. You know, lots have infrastructure that probably needs to be updated. They could have environmental issues. In Kansas City, we have situations where houses were just demoed on site and are basically in the basement, in the former basement, you know, underneath the ground on some sites. And you don't know that until you start digging. And so that's happened all around the country, and I think that that's a real discussion to be had about where the risk lies and where our financial tools can be applied in a way that creates a profitable business because for small scale, infill, incremental development. I know a lot of people who do it, but they're not necessarily doing it because of their full time job and they're going to make a profit in the near future. Some of them are doing it because they, you know, had a little bit of money and they were able to do a cool project. And it's not always completely profitable. And I think that's a real conversation to be had about, how do you create real incentives beyond just zoning? I mean, I think zoning is one piece of the puzzle, but there's more to this story than than zoning. And how do you create an oval system of funding financing construction that that aligns with the outcomes that planners and public officials are wanting to support rather than just growing out. One thing I'll also add is that there's a lot of suburbs that cannot grow out anymore, you know. I mean, I think of the Dallas Metro even, and, yeah, there are cities in you know, North Dallas and the outskirts of Dallas that are are having this first phase of or even second phase of suburban development and expansion. But there are plenty of cities that are now surrounded by other municipalities, and so they really will have to address this issue of maintaining what they have and updating infrastructure. I have a couple of cities that I'm working with that are in this dynamic right now. And thankfully, this is the conversation. You know, at a leadership level, they understand it, and they know that we can't add a bunch of new subdivisions for the next 50 years and keep growing to increase the tax base

  Rachel Leonardo 17:43

  Where's the land, right?

  Abby Newsham 17:45

  Yeah, there's very limited internal lands.

  Rachel Leonardo 17:48

  Right. And then I think you run into these pressure points of of the zoning issues, or schools of thought. I think culturally as well, JC Nichols' Planning for Permanence had a major impact on the way that we think about any kind of development in the US, even in areas that are designed to be more compact, it is designed to a finished state and and let it be. There is no incentive to take on challenges where we're potentially reusing parts of old buildings because the economic incentive isn't really there for people who are potentially doing this only part time. And I think a lot of that also can do with the fact that policies are not put in place to make it easier for people to take on those kinds of challenges, even if they have the ambition to.

  Abby Newsham 19:03

  There's a term that they use in this article. They describe it as a pattern of the great dormancy where suburban interiors that have been built out for a long time have very little or almost no housing that's been built in decades. And that's because there's been very strict zoning laws and home owner resistance to change. And I think this is a really rich concept for Strong Towns and Strong Towns oriented conversations, because it's essentially the physical manifestation of stasis, where we have underutilized and inflexible and exclusionary parts of our cities and towns that are just really not not open to adapting and changing. But at the same time, these parts are aging. I think there's been a lot of kind of systematic movement at the state level to make zoning reforms. And there's a big debate about whether that's the right approach, but I don't want to get it that today. There is a question of, will people living in these areas ever be open to change if they're informed of the full picture, or is it an issue of just, you know, we're good, we don't want to change, you know, fake picture doesn't matter. Leave us alone. That's certainly the perspective too. So it's very challenging.

  Rachel Leonardo 20:37

  Yeah. I mean, it's translation, right? That's like what I see my job as being, and also why- We'll probably get to this closer to the end of the podcast, but I love learning languages. I'm obsessed with trying to understand how people communicate, and doing what I can at least, to figure out how to communicate the best way other people communicate. I'm probably pretty mediocre at best in other languages and, who knows, maybe online with this topic. But I think being in urban planning and architecture, and pairing visuals with the words that we're saying, helps to reinforce these ideas. We often fear the idea of incremental development more than than the actual image of what it is. And as frustrating as it is when I speak to people who are more NIMBY leaning and who you know lived in suburban areas that are really beautiful, quaint, pleasant places. And they see those areas, and they say, I love this neighborhood, I don't want to see it change, but I love these ideas that Strong Towns talks about, and so therefore, like it totally should happen, just not in my backyard. It's like, okay, that is a really frustrating conversation to come to terms with, because there's buy in, but when it's not close by.

  Abby Newsham 22:11

  Or it doesn't fit in in my neighborhood.

  Rachel Leonardo 22:15

  And like, how do you how do you bring that conversation to those people? And looking for local examples of where it actually happens. Like where I grew up. I grew up in Kensington, Maryland, and close to that area is a section called Garrett Park. And in Garrett Park, they it was a town developed on the B O Railroad that goes into the to the DC area. And right next to the B and L railroad in this Victorian neighborhood is an old post office that they've maintained the post office part, but they've made the the upper level a restaurant. So it's a local restaurant. It's owned by locals. And so that has been my go to when speaking to people when I'm visiting back home, of like, we need to allow every single neighborhood to change by right? And they're like, Well, I don't want the tattoo shop in my backyard. And I'm like, well okay, the market has to kind of decide that. But you do accept the fact that local businesses should be present in your neighborhoods if you enjoy going to this small local restaurant and eating there. And I know that's not housing, and housing is a bit different, but it's a very similar concept where we're against this disruption to the way that we live, because we think of it visually as skyscrapers because that's how it's always presented itself, when in reality, if we can present the vision of no, it's not skyscrapers. It's a home that is the size of a two car garage that's just behind the house that was initially built there. It's the large home that you currently live in, but you no longer need the space for because you're an empty nester, and so now you've divided it up into two places. And instead of you having a second entrance to a mud room and the front door, that mud room entrance is now the entrance to a second home. And like that is a hard thing to get people's heads to wrap around, especially if you've talked about this frequently with other people, and you hit that breaking point of like, I don't know how else to talk to you about how this is the way that we're going to be making housing more accessible and affordable in the future. So. I definitely just went on a rant there. So please butt in.

  Abby Newsham 24:38

  Totally. It's a challenging conversation, right? And particularly in areas that have been long established. And, you know, I think devil's advocate, they probably look at development and other parts of the metropolitan area, and they there's a lot of bad development out there. Like, just in terms of aesthetics and approach and everything. So it's getting better, but it's in certain places. You know, developers design their projects, and some do it really well, and we love the people who understand urban design and architecture, but there's also developers that don't do it well. And I think the the knee jerk reaction for communities is to either say, no, you can't do anything different, or, we have to highly regulate the design and make sure that you know it goes through 20 reviews and sometimes you know that's the system that ends up getting set up. And same with the the use discussion. You mentioned the tattoo parlor, you know. And I think, like you could allow commercial uses and have some concessions on what kinds of commercial uses they are. I mean, I don't know if not allowing a tattoo shop is the right approach, right? I feel like most people in suburbs have tattoos these days. But yeah, I was at a use table not too long ago, and I was like, who hurt you? Because they didn't allow psychic arts or dinner here. And I was like, that's so specific.

  Rachel Leonardo 26:23

  Who hurt you is right! What?

  Abby Newsham 26:26

  Some of these tables, man, they get very specific about what they don't want. And I'm like, there's a story here, and I want to know what it is.

  Rachel Leonardo 26:34

  Well, yeah, you're so right to bring that up. And I don't want to gloss over that, because I think a part of what this article was trying to propose is like, what does suburbia become? Right? And I'm mixing two concepts now, but to hit on the idea that there's a story there, it's like, yeah, I really feel that there are. I mean, I know that there are people in my life who have been burned by living in cities in like, the 70s and 80s and just didn't want that again. And fear that us having to develop incrementally again would potentially create environments that, at the time, were maybe more dangerous or insecure because of, I don't necessarily know. I mean, there's so many complexities to that.

  Abby Newsham 27:20

  Yeah, addressing root causes of decline and, you know, nuisance impact. I think we associate it with built form, where built form is very important to tax productivity and financial sustainability, but it's not built form necessarily that is creating adverse impact. I mean, you live in Spain, which has a beautiful built form, and that isn't what's creating the impact. There's a lot of root causes. There's economic root causes, both macro and micro. And there's also mental health issues, there's culture.

  Rachel Leonardo 28:08

  Social issues.

  Abby Newsham 28:09

  There's a lot to unpack with all of these things. Yeah, exactly. So it really isn't a one size fits all conversation, but we have this very broad association with built form, housing types, and even, you know, particular types of uses, tattoos as the example, or tattoo parlors. So I think that's an interesting discussion to unpack, and it actually leads me to the question you asked. What do suburbs become? There is a generational shift on the horizon as well, right? Millennials are no longer like the young people. They're not writing articles about us anymore, like 30s and 40s. We're the grown up now, and there's new young people on the scene.

  Rachel Leonardo 29:03

  With some weird words, some weird language.

  Abby Newsham 29:07

  I know, I feel like now I'm an old person, but whatever. But soon it will be millennials who are the 50 year old even 60 year olds. And what do suburbs look like when that happens? What happens when the millennials be living in suburbs and are wanting to age in place? Will they be more open minded to having maybe an accessory dwelling suite, or they live on in a walkout basement and even their kids could even live in the house with them and take up the rest of the home. So I do see this as it'll probably be a very incremental change, but I do wonder if housing will become adapted as generational shifts occur.

  Rachel Leonardo 30:02

  I think you're super on the nose with that. I see how people my parents age are not able to really age in place because of the cost of living going up so much outside of the DC area. And I think that, knowing that has happened to a generation of people whose parents now need to find new homes, whether that's because they really wanted to, or out of necessity, is also an indirect message to younger generations. I think millennials and even Gen Z have had a lot more issues with being able to find stability in home ownership. And once we are able to fully achieve that as a generation, or generations, I don't know if we would be as willing to let go of it. And so therefore, this is speculative, but I do think that we will be much more open to allowing our spaces to adapt and change, because it will let us stay in places where we know we have community. And we know that we've had the chance to take that shot on opening the coffee shop down the street, and even though it's failed, we've been able to support our friend's florist business, and like the memories and the stuff that has been made there. Especially considering a lot of -- I don't want to touch on this too much -- just the turbulence in the world in the last 10 years. Finding moments and places where we can have that stability is what I think is will be our generation's biggest accomplishment. Finding a place to find security. And then once we have it, like a small amount of change between like living in a duplex versus living in the single family home, I don't think will faze us as much. Regardless of your political affiliation, there's just a lot going on. And is there a lot of news to keep up with. So yeah. I did want to touch on as well. This is me with my languages. They talked about how suburbia comes from the word suburbium, which is, I guess, a Latin word that means the area outside or under the city. And I really liked the word under the city, because traditionally, a lot of these old cities, prior to cars being associated with suburban areas were, cities were built on hills. And the suburbs were where people would then grow food for people in the city, because that was the need at the time, the close access to to foods. And the city offered other services that the land around a surrounding was not able to provide. And in Spain, I actually get to see that where outside of Pamplona, right outside of the city walls, there are still some farmlands that are maintained, but a lot of that land has now also turned into extensions of the city. Neighborhoods that have been allowed to change over time. Now we deal with our own set of issues, with housing and change and all of that, but to bring it back into more American context, I think the suburbs will have to deal with this, and they will have to change. But that doesn't mean that every aspect of the suburb should change or will change. It's not about bulldozing down neighborhoods and putting up town homes or brownstones or sky rises or five over ones, it's about every little house being able to change when it's ready to change, so that people's lives can adapt to the necessity at that given moment in whatever given year it is.

  Abby Newsham 34:00

  Yeah, and having closer alignment with the the needs of the owners of the houses, certainly. You know, you mentioned millennials securing homes and people who are currently seniors that are not able to age in place due to housing prices and the unavailability of housing in many areas. I think on the flip side of that, there's also a lot of places where you have long term older homeowners that are living in a house that is way too big for them. They don't necessarily need all the space. But they lived in that house for a very long time, maybe they raised a family there, and they probably have a low interest rate right because of COVID era. And now houses are more expensive. Right now we're in kind of a weird market. And so what I'm finding in a lot of cities right now is that dynamic is actually causing people to age in place, but not in the way that they want to age in place. There's plenty of people that are interested in downsizing or finding lower maintenance options, even whether they're renting or if it's a condo that they buy like a villa or townhome, something like that. But they don't feel like they can, because if they sell their house, they're going to probably buy a more expensive little villa that's lower maintenance, but it's actually going to be more expensive in some cases, particularly if they're in an area that had, you know, a really stable or increasing market. And so there's this dynamic going on where there are people that are aging in place, but they would like to age in place in a different kind of way, but the options just really aren't available. And so you have this supply of large and medium sized houses that theoretically could hold a lot more people, but they just aren't because there's not an incentive to the current owner to, you know, sell it or transfer it to somebody else. So that's a dynamic that I've seen a lot that is another challenge in housing. So I think it just speaks to how complex these these issues are. And you know, when you think of adaptability, well, some of those owners may be interested. And how do I allow this house that I'm kind of stuck in to adapt? Can I do something that will work for me? I mean, maybe they'll have their kids move into it, and they'll live on site and be a multi generational home.

  Rachel Leonardo 37:01

  Or it could even be an issue of trust, right? Like, if you're an older person and there is a younger family who potentially wants to live in your house, and they would allow you to live in a certain space in that house, if you could adapt it.

  Abby Newsham 37:17

  Yeah, or you rent it to them.

  Rachel Leonardo 37:19

  That's more the social side, right?

  Abby Newsham 37:21

  They could carry out groceries and help you with things.

  Rachel Leonardo 37:26

  Yeah, but you've got to have that relationship established with that person. And I'm sure there are cases where that exists, but there's just not a way to divide the house up to allow these people to live dignified lives in in their own separate spaces still.

  Abby Newsham 37:47

  Yeah, have privacy still. That's a very good point.

  Rachel Leonardo 37:53

  It's complex. It's a very complex issue. I think, you touched on this. There's a lot of pressure at this point, given the rigidity, and given this fact that the idea of permanence is actually crumbling, because we can't promise that, like nothing is permanent. We are constantly changing as humans and therefore our needs are constantly changing. And therefore our environments also need to be able to change, and we need to be able to change our environments. So for the people who do want to live in a suburbs, they should have the right to live in a suburb. But most people need other options, and we just can't provide that. And the fact that there's that pressure at this point, although it's uncomfortable, I think it's awesome. At least from my perspective, in the conversations you're having, it seems that people are becoming more open to this, but maybe there's a hitch. I don't know. You've gotta let me know.

  Abby Newsham 38:51

  Organizations like Strong Towns and people who are writing these kinds of articles. It really does make an impact. I'll say, from the perspective of somebody working in cities and engaging with communities and people directly, people do increasingly, understand these concepts and understand the challenges. Whether or not they want to address them or want to change is another conversation. But I've been impressed by the level of sophistication that a lot of cities have, both on the leadership side, but also local community members that are not technical experts on these issues, there's a lot of people that understand these these issues. I think that is important for organizations like Strong Towns and and writers and people who are making content around topics that impact city building. It's just very important thing to continue?

  Rachel Leonardo 40:02

  Yeah, and to your point, like, getting more of that local touch in this article. There are so many videos of people I've seen who use, like- in California, I forget the name of the code, but they're able to start small businesses in their driveways, and a link to that, of like, look, this is actually what people are doing, would have been really nice. But it does exist.

  Abby Newsham 40:33

  That can be really cool.

  Rachel Leonardo 40:33

  Right. It does exist, and you can look it up online, like it's not inaccessible to you now, which is really cool. So there is this ecosystem around this article that, to your point, is growing, and it's cool to be a part of that as well. To hopefully allow for that visual of, hey, it's just a duplex, it's not a skyscraper, to start to manifest in people and sit with people, so that they don't feel as confronted with it when the idea actually comes to their town.

  Abby Newsham 41:00

  Yeah and creative placemaking and adaptability. I mean, there's a lot of interesting ideas that are not just for urban areas. I'm constantly thinking about this idea of adapting the suburban neighborhood pool into like, a cute market slash, like food truck area. I think those are so often the center of a neighborhood in a lot of suburban communities, and there's so much you could do with it. I think it could be a really cool year round community center. It doesn't just have to be a pool. There's a lot of different things you could do with their structures and with the site.

  Rachel Leonardo 41:48

  Oh, I'd be curious about that design. If you're working on something like that, I would love to see, I'm trying to imagine.

  Abby Newsham 41:55

  I'm not working on anything specific. It's all in my head. But if somebody listening wants to take that and steal it and do something cool to neighborhood pool. Please just send me a picture.

  Rachel Leonardo 42:06

  I know, I want one too. Wait, send me a DM too. I want to see that. That sounds so cool.

  Abby Newsham 42:10

  Yeah, totally. You'll write an article about it or something, put it out into the ether. Um, but yeah, I think that there are destinations within suburban neighborhoods that could become more than just what they are. There's playgrounds. There's neighborhood pools. So I think that there's other ways to creatively adapt neighborhoods without totally changing the context. Okay, well, with that, is there anything else that you want to touch on before we get to the downzone?

  Rachel Leonardo 42:45

  I mean, I guess I'll just say that North America has been known so much for innovation. We are a country that eats Oreos that are flavored like cake. We have technology that allows us to get deliveries within 24 hours, and that didn't exist 15 years ago. I think we underestimate our ability to adapt to any kind of change. When we see how much innovation we are able to absorb in the short span of time that we have, I just hope that people recognize that we can do the same with our built environment, and it wouldn't change as quickly as the way that our technology has changed our lives. If anything, it will make everybody around us happier, more confident in taking small risks like creating businesses, and give everybody the ability to live a life that they want to live and not one that they're forced into. Yeah. Those are my last thoughts there.

  Abby Newsham 43:52

  That's great. It was a very good last thought. Okay, well, let's go into the downzone. So this is part of the show where we share anything that we've been up to these days, reading, watching, listening to, or just activities that we've been up to. So Rachel, I'll put you on the spot. What is your downzone?

  Rachel Leonardo 44:17

  Man, there's been a lot going on over the last couple of weeks, I have to say. I'll give a shout out to Michel Durand-Wood. He just put out his new book, I believe it's now available in the US called, "You'll Pay for This." If you're not a city finance person, this is a great intro into it. I think he does an insane job of actually making it really approachable. I was laughing through the book. It's like a weekend read, 100 pages. Highly recommend that if you're into this world. And he's just a great person. In other stuff, I mean, so San Fermin is happening here. I feel like I could have a whole podcast talking about this, but I'll keep it short. San Fermin, for those who don't know, is the running of the bulls in Pamplona, which is where I'm located right now. So every day after work, everyone dresses up in white clothes with a little red handkerchief. I'm going to show Abby on the screen here. Everybody wears these around their neck. And then we just go out, and you're with people, there's music in the streets, and, you know, depends on how you enjoy parties, but most people are much more relaxed than others, but there's a mix of everybody doing everything. It's really beautiful to see the city come together. So yeah, how about yourself?

  Abby Newsham 45:35

  That's very cool. Um, well, let's see. I actually randomly went to Half Price Books here in Kansas City and picked up a Stephen King novel recently. So I've been reading "The Outbiders" by Stephen King, which is a murder mystery book. I also have new gutters in my house, but the way that they were built has been putting a little bit of water in my basement. So I got large water collection containers, and they've now been rerouted to those. And so it rained last night for the first time. I got to test it out, and it is amazing how much water, I mean, I don't even think it rained very much, but it's full now. So I need to go hook a hose up to it and empty out the container. Although it does have another mechanism where, when it gets full, it'll pour out and the water will be led to a different part of my garden. So I'm creating a whole water system for my landscape.

  Rachel Leonardo 46:43

  That's so cool. Oh, I'm honestly so jealous of you.

  Abby Newsham 46:47

  I built a patio, single handedly, by the way. I built a patio a couple weeks ago, and I've been landscaping, and I just love. Every summer, I'm just constantly chipping away at the landscape and building things and trying to make it better.

  Rachel Leonardo 47:05

  That is the best . Summer garden era.

  Abby Newsham 47:09

  Yeah. I learned about mosquito dunks. And so there's a whole approach to getting rid of this mosquitoes, where you take a bucket, water, these little things called mosquito dunks, which are like little pallets. And then you put a bunch of twigs and compost, and you put fruit, so, like slice apples into it. The fermentation creates carbon dioxide, which attracts the mosquitoes, and then they go into in there, and they try to lay eggs, and it will kill them. So it's a way of getting rid of mosquitoes without killing everything. So a lot of people spray their yard and it kills all the bugs. So this is a way to get around that. So I've been spending a lot of time working on my yard.

  Rachel Leonardo 48:04

  That's a really good tip. I'm I've been dreaming of when I get into my garden era, because right now I'm in an apartment.

  Abby Newsham 48:13

  I'm fully in it.

  Rachel Leonardo 48:15

  I'm so jealous of you. That sounds awesome. And the fact that you- I love, like, things that adults say that as a child, you're like, that's not that interesting. But the fact that you rerouted the water from your gutter to your basement and into your garden, that is so cool. I'm obsessed with that.

  Abby Newsham 48:33

  16 year old me would have been like, okay?

  Rachel Leonardo 48:37

  Yeah, right, right. When I talk to friends, and I'm like, Yeah, so I talk about sidewalks for a living. And they're like, Oh, okay. Like, are you? And I'm like, I promise it's way cooler. You know. We were just at the National Gathering, and I was joking around with people, just saying that it's so crazy because most of the time I'm interacting with people online about this stuff, to actually have a conversation and be like, yeah, bollards are really important because they help us keep streets safe and reduce the probability of crashes for cyclists, and then for somebody to come in immediately with some other fact, like on the nose, instead of me, who normally I'll post something, and the reaction I get is delayed because it's in a comment, and it's not necessarily something I'm reading 24/7. It was like, oh, man! You know, meeting other people. If you're this far in, you're in a good crowd, I'm sure. I mean, you're also probably hanging around because Abby's pretty cool. In general, I think that it's a really good group of people in this field trying to do some pretty awesome things.

  Abby Newsham 49:45

  There have a lot of cool stuff to do in this field. And yeah, I had a similar conversation, actually yesterday with somebody, where I was enthusiastically talking about zoning, and I was like, I can't believe I'm the person who's enthusiastically excited to work on a zoning issue. But here I am. It's not what I not what I imagined here myself when I was eight years old. But these are, these are complex issues, and it's fun to solve problems, and I think it's cool that there's a whole community of other people that are interested in that as well.

  Rachel Leonardo 49:58

  And it is, it is cool, right? Like, we gotta pat ourselves on the back here. Like, it totally affects how we live. And I think all of us just want to have a better life. And I love what you said earlier about the fact that the the urban form isn't necessarily what has caused some issues in the past in cities like New York or DC area, right? It's these other factors that go into it. Like policy can be a part of that. Social issues, economic issues, cultural issues, international things like, there's just so many other forms things at play. But when you get down to the root of seeing a city, seeing a town that's built in the incremental form, and you watch kids be able to run around without the fear of getting hit by a car, or like families relaxing on a bench and chatting with one another while their kids run around, and they have a bit of relief from the kids further for a couple of minutes. That's the heart of what we're trying to do, is just find ways to bring community together, because the built form is, I think, what most of us believe is the best way to do that. We've got a long way ahead of us, but I think at the very least, there's been a lot more conversation in a positive direction in the last five years around this stuff, more publicly speaking. I know that's been around for a while, but it's starting to seep into different aspects of more mainstream, quote, unquote publication. So, yeah, really, this was awesome. I really enjoyed talking about Vox and the fact that they're even talking about the stuff that we're talking about.

  Abby Newsham 52:10

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's great. Well, Rachel, let's leave it there, but you are welcome to join me on Upzoned anytime. Any time we can make the timing work. I know you're- what is it, about seven o'clock, where you are? So yeah, when we can make the timing work, let's do this again some time. This is fun.

  Rachel Leonardo 52:32

  I would love to. Yeah, thank you for letting me jibber jabber with you. I really appreciate it, and I really had a great time. This was so fun.

  Abby Newsham 52:39

  This was a lot of fun, and probably not as fun as the bull festival that you'll be participating in. But yes, it was a lot of fun, and I hope you enjoy your many days of parties over the next few days.

  Rachel Leonardo 52:51

  I know, I'll also be resting. I'm not gonna be crazy about it. But yes, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and good luck with the garden as well. I hope I get updates next time I'm on.

  Abby Newsham 53:01

  Yeah, totally. All right. Thanks Rachel and thank everyone for listening to another episode of Upzoned.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

• Here are 6 simple ways to make housing more affordable in your community.

• “Sprawl made the American Sunbelt affordable. Now it’s breaking it.” by Marina Bolotnikova, Vox (July 2025).

• See Rachel’s work:

  • Studio Leonardo (YouTube)

  • Strong Towns (YouTube)

• Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

• Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

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